Talk:Paris Agreement

$100 Billion

Page 8, paragraph 54 of the agreement describes the goal of USD 100 billion per year, taking into account the needs and priorities of the developing countries. However, no mention of these funds seems to appear in the text of the actual agreement (after page 21). Is this fund real or not? Thanks! --Lbeaumont (talk) 13:14, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

The funds are committed in the decision part of the deal, but not the treaty part. That doesn't make it any less real, it just changes the legal status of the commitments. (The reason this was done is because the US Senate needs to approve US participation in the treaty part, but not the decision part, and would likely have rejected the agreement if it included the $100 billion commitment.) TDL (talk) 16:11, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! Perhaps the article can include a section "Structure of the Agreement" that can help me understand the distinctions between the decision part and the treaty part of the agreement. --Lbeaumont (talk) 20:59, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Actually that should be in the 2015 Climate Change Conference article, as the agreement was just 1 of the decisions taken as part of agenda item 4b of the conference, but that article is better on opinions and qualifications than it is on what formally was decided.... L.tak (talk) 21:03, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Adoption

Perhaps a new section on "adoption" can clarify the timeline, or sequence of steps, that include signature, adoption, and ratification. What are the requirements and obligations (of what parties) linked to signature, adoption, and ratification? Thanks. --Lbeaumont (talk) 13:27, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

2015 United Nations Climate Change Conference

Shouldn't this just redirect to 2015 United Nations Climate Change Conference? William M. Connolley (talk) 21:23, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Nope. The Climate Change Conference has ended, while for the Paris Agreement, things are just beginning. It still needs, signing, approving, Meeting of the Parties, evaluations etc. Just like the Kyoto Protocol is much different from the 1997 Climate Change Conference (in Kyoto) that established it.... L.tak (talk) 21:35, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Are promises Legally Binding? and not yet ratified

Several news reports claim that the agreement is "legally binding". Are aspects of the agreement legally binding? If so, what specific language creates what specific legal obligations on what particular parties? If a violation is alleged, how is legal action initiated, adjudicated, and enforced? Thanks. --Lbeaumont (talk) 13:10, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Early news reports were totally vague about the "binding" aspect. CNN was the best at seeing through the haze and recognizing that the countries only promised to do their best and that 55 of the world's major polluters would need to ratify the agreement before it would even be effective. (a later UN press release confirmed that). Other media soon began to publish quotes from experts who are very critical about the "promises" but not "commitments" constituting many of the conditions of the Paris Agreement. (Are promises ever "legally binding"??) I just added a section with this correct, and more balanced, coverage of the topic, with many citations from major News agencies and from the UN Press office as well. Peter K Burian 15:18, 14 December 2015 (UTC) (https:/ /en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/User:Peter_K_Burian)

Thanks, that needed to be corrected. It will be legally binding, if entered into force, and only for the ratifiers, and only to the extent the agreement is worded (which means no concrete country-by-country targets)... L.tak (talk) 17:23, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

DOES need ratification

Someone deleted a section about the agreement needing ratification. (anonymous user 148.103.168.60) Did he read any of the news articles in the citations?? Or the UN press release? I have reverted that.

See the CNN Report for example. Quote: Individual countries now must individually ratify or approve the agreement in their respective countries. .. And the agreement won't enter into force until 55 countries have ratified it. Those nations must account for 55% of total global greenhouse gas emissions. The agreement was adopted by "consensus" during the meeting of government ministers. That doesn't necessarily mean all 196 parties approved it; French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius, who served as the president of the conference, had the authority to decide if a consensus had been reached. http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/12/world/global-climate-change-conference-vote/ Peter K Burian 15:51, 14 December 2015 (UTC) https:/ /en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ User:Peter_K_Burian

Agreed, I have changed the wording, and splitted facts and opinions a bit... L.tak (talk) 17:22, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Someone may not like CNN; ok, here is another citation from a Canadian TV News nework:

The deal now needs to be ratified by individual governments – at least 55 countries representing at least 55 per cent of global emissions – before taking effect. It is the first pact to ask all countries to join the fight against global warming, representing a sea change in U.N. talks that previously required only wealthy nations to reduce their emissions. http://globalnews.ca/news/2396965/negotiators-analyze-final-draft-of-climate-pact-in-paris/ Peter K Burian 20:09, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Washington Times: The deal now needs to be ratified by individual governments — at least 55 countries representing at least 55 percent of global emissions — and would take effect in 2020. It is the first pact to ask all countries to join the fight against global warming, representing a sea change in U.N. talks that previously required only wealthy nations to reduce their emissions. http://newsroom.unfccc.int/unfccc-newsroom/finale-cop21/ Peter K Burian 20:14, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, but would you say the present wording is wrong? L.tak (talk) 20:15, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Hmmm ... I wrote much of the section but I believe that a couple of people have made revisions to it. Will check again and revise if necessary. Peter K Burian 20:47, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, someone really condensed the content that I had written. I made a few small changes now. I supposed the condensed version was OK when I saw it a minute ago but I'm sure a couple of people will revise it again. I will keep an eye out for changes. Peter K Burian 20:52, 14 December 2015 (UTC) https:/ /en.wikipedia.org /wiki/User:Peter_K_Burian

Much of it is NOT binding

Why revise my wording to claim it is binding. See the Reactions sections; experts agree that much of it is NOT binding. Countries can set whatever level they want and that might be very nominal and not even come close to the target the UN wants. OK, I will revise it in line with this news item: The agreement is partly legally binding and partly voluntary. http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35084374 Peter K Burian 21:03, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

'Almost nothing binding': Nick Dearden, of the Global Justice Now organization, pointed out that many of the items in the agreement are voluntary and that the pact "... has almost nothing binding".[19] Professor James Hansen, a former NASA scientist and a climate change expert, voiced anger about the fact that most of the agreement consists of "promises" or aims and not firm commitments.[20] Peter K Burian 21:08, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Washington Post The Paris agreement does not enforce the implementation of the NDCs. ... Countries can deviate from their pledges whenever doing so is convenient to them. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/12/14/heres-what-political-science-can-tell-us-about-the-paris-climate-deal/ Peter K Burian 21:16, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

True... but that does not make the agreement non binding (just the level of the commitments, which is not in the agreement anyway) L.tak (talk) 21:21, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

binding/non binding

Peter, I am afraid we are agreeing on the substance, but not on the way to write down the binding/non-binding part. Allow me to explain (and not use the articles, but the treaty, as the media have the point right, but not all have the treaty-stuff right). An international agreement is binding after it enters into force for a party. This is fundamental to the pacta sunt servanda doctrine. However, what is not in the treaty, is -of course- not binding. So binding is: the requirement to give intended reductions, but not what they say. Then it is easy to say that the treaty is not binding in part, but that is not correct. This source had it correct (and this one as well. L.tak (talk) 21:12, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

We do agree in principle talk. My biggest concern was the version that called it a binding agreement. If it is, then why are so many sections not binding, including the plan to give $100 billion in aid to underdeveloped countries. But at the end of the day, I think we need to ensure that the reader understands that if the Agreement goes into force (IF) then parts of it will be binding (every country must set a target) while some important sections (like setting a target that does more than pay lip service) are not binding. And if a country fails to meet the target it had set, there is no enforcement method nor any penalty. The comments in the Reactions section certainly suggest that too much of the Agreement is not binding. Peter K Burian 22:13, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, this is semantics I think. The Agreement (as in: overall consensus reached on all issues) is only partially there. But the Paris Agreement (the text of which is here and which is relatively short) will be fully binding (for those that ratify), except that it is silent on the 100 billion, and silent on the level of national contributions (so that's not binding). L.tak (talk) 22:22, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Back when I was a junior writer for several magazines, a Senior Editor gave me the best advice of my career: "Peter, let's give the readers knowledge, not just information". I think that applies here. I always look at it from a reader's perspective and ask myself, "Does he or she really appreciate the gist of the situation, in spite of the very short sections here?" (Only the most dedicated reader - perhaps someone writing a College essay on the topic - will actually read the Agreement; and I had made that document one of the citations. Hopefully that citation has not since been deleted.) Cheers! Peter K Burian 22:28, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

That's good advice indeed... I am sure we can come up with wording which is both correct and giving the gist of what is happening. For that we need some info on the GHG pledges amonst others, which I'll try to add... L.tak (talk) 22:35, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Someone called MaynardClark likes my edits; he has thanked me many times. Perhaps too many times, but it's nice to get a pat on the back occasionally. Peter K Burian 22:51, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Which is main article? This one or 2015 United Nations Climate Change Conference

Interesting; both articles refer the reader to the Main Article: the other one. This Agreement article has the most information about the Paris Agreement (the reason for the Conference) so should we be saying "Main Article: 2015 United Nations Climate Change Conference"?? Peter K Burian 23:08, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, just like the Chemical Weapons Convention and OPCW have a main article "on eachother". They are not meant as the main thing, but the main article on that particular heading, so not meant in a hierarchical sence.... L.tak (talk) 23:19, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Makes sense. Peter K Burian 23:32, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Population

Nowhere in the agreement the problem of human population stabilisation is mentioned. The word "population" does not appear at all, even if there is a clear and rather obvious correlation between population growth, resource consumption and depletion, waste output (including GHGs emissions). I think this is a major missing point. — Preceding [.[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [.[Special:Contributions/133.11.157.173|133.11.157.173]] ([.[User talk:133.11.157.173|talk]]) 09:22, 15 December 2015 (UTC) !-- Template: Unsigned IP -->

It may be helpful to develop a section called "notable omissions" that describe various (more ambitious) proposals that were made but not adopted into the final agreement. Perhaps "population" is one such rejected proposal. Is there any reliable reference on this? Thanks! --Lbeaumont (talk) 13:22, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Title

Shouldn't the article be titled Paris Agreement on climate change, so the reader understands immediately what it is about ? We have Paris agreements which redirects to London and Paris Conferences, the Treaty of Paris disambiguation page, etc, so there might be a risk of confusion. Moreover, even though the official document uses the title Paris agreement, period, the name Paris Agreement on climate change is used on the COP21's website, as well as in various media. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 10:01, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Surprisingly there is no "Paris Agreement" yet that has formally that name and has a wikipedia page, so that was the reason to start here. To be honest, I have know idea what the common name will be. At the moment people just talk about "the pact" and conflate the outcome of the climate change conference with its most important result (the Agreement), but also "Paris Agreement on Climate Change", and "Paris Climate Agreement" (the latter bij UNFCCC) seems to be used. Only time will tell what the common name is: will it be like the Kyoto protocol known without any addition or will it be more descriptive (maybe even "Climate Agreement"). My suggestion thus is to wait and not to rename, for example until after the signature ceremony and media are really talking about the agreement itself, and we can see what consensus is. L.tak ([.[User talk:L.tak|talk]]) 12:54, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Development of the US Nationally Determined Contribution

How will the US Nationally Determined Contribution be developed? What agency has primary responsibility? What time line is being followed? How can interested citizens follow the progress, get involved, and influence the final outcome? Thanks! --[.[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] (talk) 13:18, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Criteria for addition of external links and further readings?

Two additional external articles on the implications of the Paris Agreement and its follow-up steps were added by different users and then deleted. The deleting editor insists that they are spam, although the articles are from professionals in the field (i.e., environmental think tank expert, and university professor), relevant to the topic, and are not behind paywalls. Considering that at the moment there are neither further readings nor external links for the topic, why should references to additional articles be deleted? — Preceding [.[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [.[Special:Contributions/87.77.67.117|87.77.67.117]] (talk) 16:05, 9 June 2016 (UTC) !-- Template:Unsigned IP --> !--Autosigned by SineBot-->

Please see the passage that I cited in my edit summary. [.[Wikipedia:External_links#Links_normally_to_be_avoided|Pt11]] says that only blogs by "recognized authorities" should be included, and goes on to say that such "individuals always meet Wikipedia's notability criteria for people". Can you demonstrate that William Hull is a recognized authority which meets Wikipedia's notability criteria? The article suggests that the author is a student studying the subject, which is not very compelling evidence that the author qualifies as an authority.

Also, can you please disclose what your relationship to William Hull and/or the Berlin Forum is? [.[User:Danlaycock|TDL]] ([.[User talk:Danlaycock|talk]]) 03:50, 10 June 2016 (UTC)